Balance issues

[cosworth]

While demoing the game to a new player I ran into a balance issue that made him claim that AE Bounty was broken.
We used a list another player had made with a Headtaker+Unkillable hero with adrenal booster.
The combination of 5W, 5Dr, Melee master, S4 and the 5+ ward save made him a killing machine "impossible" to take down.

I couldn't give him a good example of how to take him down before he could engage your crew and cut them to shreds. His hero was a blooded warrior seargeant and was no match for the headtaker.

The great variety of choices will quickly become stale if there are a few extremely good choices that outperform all other.

Another issue along the same lines is getting a second hero choice in exchange for a green unit. That strategy is so good I have a hard time seeing any reason NOT to do so every single time. Again the illusion of choice breaks down.

Please indicate if I missed any options here (other than creating a mirror list).

[varagon]

Scenarios...
Bounty is dependent on scenarios to stay viable.

This idea of "balance" was discussed in the "hero" thread on how to take down a Super Human in AE: WWII.

Essentially, an assassin sniper with the right weapon and gear can take him down. You'll easily get upwards of 10+ on a STR roll after hitting. Here's the thread for the discussion since I'm not posting any specifics:
darksondesigns.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=aewwiiissues&action=display&thread=2822

Of course, this is from WWII, so you'll have to take a few things into consideration.

If you want, I can build up a guy to help you in your discussion if need be.

Thanks for bringing this idea up, as if there are problems, we want to find out about them and help fix any problems.

[dijit80]

There are a few combinations that will really hurt time and time again, as varagon has said though the key is often missions. Just because one crews obliterates the other, doesn't mean it succeeds in it's mission - obliterating the opponent isn't an auto-win. The best option against most dangerous things in AE is suppression a couple of green or regular models with LRFs will make a far more dangerous unit keep ducking for cover and doing nothing else. It doesn't always work mind you.

That said there are a few things I've noticed, for example the king of heavy weapons is easily the grenade launcher, there really isn't that much competition, HRF all have reload as do a few of the others, the rest have slow rates of fire or short ranges. The grenade launcher has none of these. Also making those large template crews work with all the greens doesn't seem to be all that easy.

The folks at Darkson say it is a narrative game rather than a competative game (I think in Denmark we're much more used to tournament gaming). AE Bounty has the potential to be a great competative game as well as a narrative game ; maybe with lots of critical and constructive comments like yours (and mine own) they can build on it and come with a second edition that can be both.
Duncan

[abbysdad]

Good example and responses. We'll take all that into consideration and get back to you.

[lorka]

I just wanted to butt in since I was the one claiming it was sorta game breaking combo.

Now I realize that games like this it is not balanced on a one-to-one model basis and that is fine. In fact I don't mind having mêlée monsters where one model can 100% certainty win and kill another in close combat, since you can surpress and or ignore the guy, maybe even kill him with concentrated fire.
But in this case he have a rather high Drive, he have high movement (would have been worse with gravity belt instead of adrenaline boost) and are very hard to kill (even without adrenaline boost) this means you have to focus your complete game on this one model, he ignore more models in close combat, any model with lower close combat skill can't get away and he just obliterate anyone unless they are like him. So in other words to be uncompetitive you need your on mêlée monster and you both now have to play around the monsters.

The problem isn't that you can't plan a way to deal with it, the problem is everyone have to play a certain way.

But this is all based on experience with games like this, I only watched one game and tried playing one game.

Also you in the first game, where I just watched the one with the monster shielded him and he really didn't make much of a difference, since the opponent just had to run a couple of guys out on the other side ... had the monster just rushed in I am sure it would have gone the other way.

The second, where I played, it was a stand and fight scenario where we had to kill each other so the monster had more of an impact, and was also played better now in the hand of Cosworth.

So based on my experience I should not be so harsh seeing how it was 50/50 win with the guy - but it left me with a bad taste that I could not take him down even when committing a whole crew on just one model. Again my first game I wrongly assumed that 2 Regular Cutters + a Hero Sergeant was a match for the above mentioned build; so next time I face someone like him I know what to expect ... maybe a green choice with light repeaters can keep him down the whole time, that would be fine and prove to me it's a worry that don't really mean much in most games.

[evernevermore(john)]

If you are playing a straight up kill your opponent battle, AE Bounty or AE WW2 wont really play too well to your liking. The point-less list creation will never, EVER be balanced enough for a 40k-esque bloodbath. Besides if you focus on straight up killing everything that moves, you loose much of what makes the Drive system different from Leadership stat. This is a game where your troops will run away from the vicious face eater from beyond if you dont do anything, especially if the face eater has just eaten another squads face.

Id go so far as saying you should NOT play a straight up kill your opponent game, and should always have some sort of scenario or story to a game.

For one thing - did anyone think of routing the big nasty? He might be big and bad but if you pop his supporting units his drive is going to start nose diving. What about psychic attacks?

[dijit80]

Plus 40k is FAR from balanced; AE Bounty is much more balanced than 40k ever will be until they have a serious rules overhaul and balance all the 'dexes before they release any of them.

[cosworth]

good responses. I've seen the "story-based" argument several times in other games too. I can't help feeling it's an excuse to avoid playtesting. Not to imply this is the case here.

AE Bounty has a great potential with it's unique crew building mechanic. If however the plethora of options boil down to a few choices you'd be dumb not to take, the potential is lost on many people I know.

We already have rules saying "only one augmentation" etc. so maybe we just need another that limits hero type combos with gear that affects the same stats.

[lorka]

I am after thinking about it more convinced the problem is not because of two slightly unbalanced effects that together have a high synergy effect:

1. The high amount of wounds combined with impervious save and high drive. Making him hard to kill and rout, several have mentioned to 'drive' him away, but he have a very high drive combined with few troops in the crew he will rarely loose any drive.

2. The combat ability ... I forget the name not having the rules with me, but it gave him roll 2 dice and pick one + ignore multiple opponent combatants. This is incredible good, it means you have 1/3 chance of exploding 6, and if you have that skill you also have high close combat skill so you never loose a close combat no matter how many opponents you are up against.

These two things make it really really nasty ... and yes there should always be a scenario, thus we rolled on your generator list and got a straight up fight - so its something you included in the rules can happen 1/5 times if you always randomize:
That means that if you don't have an equal hard close combat monster you will loose 20% of the time, on top of that its not like he is useless in most other scenarios.

I don't mind it is not totally balanced, but if one build can dominate totally it gets boring, since you have to include it.

Anyway more plays before I start crying, just voicing a small concern

In the same vein is something I read somewhere else that also Grenade Launchers where quite hard to deal with, then you risk ending up with a game played with a handful of models where one have to be a close combat monster and one a grenade launching heavy then the rest doesn't matter

Luckily most players don't obsess about stuff like this to the same degree that I do, so I can probably ignore the close combat monster 'problem' and still rarely have to deal with it.

[dijit80]

As another note, I've also taken the melee monster to an extreme and played with a two man crew, with two headhunters, assassin, monowire weapons, swords and a few other tricks. They should also have annihilated the opponent, but due to the scenario, they just didn't have enough legs to move enough objectives and also ended up being suppressed. With a little more experience now I think I could build the crew better, but they'd still not have enough legs to succeed at that mission.
I'm not sure an opposite melee monster is the answer, they end up neutralising each other. A sniper hero with electrolaser, assassin, articulated weapon harness and hot shot might prove more effective, as it'll always hit on 2+, ignores alot of cover, and has a Strength of at least 6 and can move and fire.

[varagon]

What's the strongest STR sniper you can build?

[dijit80]

So far I've come down to Merc sniper with electro-laser and hot shot (S4), make him/her an assassin hero to get -1Rc (so hits on a 2+ together with Crack Shot and the electro laser is Accurate) and Lethal adding +2S and human with hunter 'x' potentially adding a further 1, meaning it always hits on 2+ ignores a lot of cover and has S6/7. There might be some heavies out there that could get better with a rocket launcher and rapid reload, but they wouldn't be hitting as well.

[Darkson]

Wicked Sniper and that would put an end to our friend the Combat Monster. I am very pro sniper. In AE-WWII I run 2 sometimes in games. I know I know cheezzzze but fun.

[abbysdad]

I'd like to add something to this discussion in general.

We do a lot of play testing and work on the different combinations so that the games are fun and as balanced as possible given the context. We don't hide behind the narrative concept and we never will. I think that the games are more fun with a story, and I don't like to load up models for maximum killage. But those are just my preferences.

In some cases, like with the superheroes, the options are included in the game purely for fun and have not yet been permitted in tourney play. That was something we saw players doing and we wanted to give those guys who wanted to do it a bonus for their modeling effort.

The case of an unbalanced model or combo is a completely different thing.

If it breaks the game, or puts players in an always win/lose situation, we will fix it. That's not a fun way to spend your time, losing when you didn't have a chance to win.

The two man crew is a powerful but limited option. So is that head hunter hero which started off this thread. They tend to get creamed in loot scenarios and anything involving holding ground. If there isn't a lot of cover, they will be shot to pieces. Is that fair? Sure. Because in the right situation that hero will eat your face before you know what hit you. That being said, we will review the issue that was raised. What we might do is create a tactics article for taking out custom made monsters like that in WW2 and Bounty.

[mobo]

Feb 21, 2011 4:45:52 GMT -5 cosworth said:

While demoing the game to a new player I ran into a balance issue that made him claim that AE Bounty was broken.
We used a list another player had made with a Headtaker+Unkillable hero with adrenal booster.
The combination of 5W, 5Dr, Melee master, S4 and the 5+ ward save made him a killing machine "impossible" to take down.

I couldn't give him a good example of how to take him down before he could engage your crew and cut them to shreds. His hero was a blooded warrior seargeant and was no match for the headtaker.

The great variety of choices will quickly become stale if there are a few extremely good choices that outperform all other.

Another issue along the same lines is getting a second hero choice in exchange for a green unit. That strategy is so good I have a hard time seeing any reason NOT to do so every single time. Again the illusion of choice breaks down.

Please indicate if I missed any options here (other than creating a mirror list). [/quote

The Master Metalist can kill him within 12" regardless of number of wounds.

But yes, I made the same hero type who killed my opponents Brute. I had a pike,which really made the difference. +2 Melee and a monowire to cut his armor.
That Brute had been annoying for so many games, now was the time to take him out ;D

I asked in another post if you can pile hero types. That would make some really insane supermen.