Rush For Shanghai

[weridetofight]

I was thinking, for a scenario book or something; it could be a Rush For Shanghai- with Mao's Communists pushing down from the liberated areas of Manchuria and the American backed KMT pushing from the Southwest, in the same way that both the Americans and Russians were trying to get to Berlin, both the Communists and KMT want to capture Shanghai from the Japanese themselves, who in desperation have either executed or expelled anyone living in the city that is not a IJA collaborator and they have essentially turned it into "Fortress Shanghai"

I think it would be a fun campaign style scenario to play (like five or six constructed battles)

[skorzeny]

That would be very cool. I like it. It could even become more complicated if the Americans are giving supplies to Mao as well as Chiang, figuring they don't care who gets there, just that it happens soon. And, of course, Mao's Soviet 'comrades' might be less than anxious to see the Chicoms succeed too well, perhaps even setting up their 'allies' for the same kind of stab in the back they did to the Poles during the Warsaw Uprising. After all, the best source of intelligence the Japanese had during the war was their embassy in Moscow - when it suited them the Reds were quite happy to tell the Japs exactly what the US and UK were up to.

[weridetofight]

Skorzeny, your knowledge of WW2 is astounding.....wait are you the REAL OTTO SKORZENY?! haha, j/k.

I'm glad you like the scenario, although I think the Soviets would be aggressively backing the Chicom as if the KMT succeded, it would give the Americans a great ally in a future war against Communism; and the Soviets had supported the CCP since the mid 20's (with Maxim Guns and Mosin N's, in China known as the Type 24 MG and Type 23 Carbine) and the Soviets handed over all the captured weapons from the Japanese after Op: August Storm to the Chicom forces.

[xeoran]

Just to be a histotrical beard but the Western Allies didnt actually push for Berlin. Montgomery and most of the British commanders (whilst most American commanders assumed they would head for Berlin) demanded it but after Montgomery was such a prat about the Ardennes and following his failure at Arnhem the idea was as good as dropped by Ike. Something which came as a bit of a shock to poor old General Simpson when he was 48 hours away from it.

[skorzeny]

Actually, the push for Berlin was one of the few times the Americans showed their planning for the long-term. They let Stalin fixate on the symbolic conquest while they diverted Patton south to strike Thuringia and capture locations like Penemunde and the Skoda Works in Czechoslovakia. Technology and scientists were things that would be of great value in the post war world while dead Nazi leaders would be of considerable less value.

The offical reason, and perhaps Ike really did believe Goebbels' propoganda about it, was to cut off a German withdrawl into the 'Alpine Redoubt' a national stronghold it was feared the Nazi leaders would slither off to and hold out in. The aforementioned Col Skorzeny was one of those who made his way across the carcass of Germany to link up with forces at the Redoubt - he was rather pissed when he found that there was nothing there to back up the propoganda!

On the Soviet end, I agree they would be much happier with Mao than the KMT, but I think they would be even more pleased with a Japanese victory. Stalin was always terrified that if Japan was defeated too soon, the US would accept and seperate peace from Germany and withdraw from the war. The way I see it, in the Shanghai scenario, their primary (though secret) concern would be helping the Japanese with whatever intelligence they can provide. Mao would be a distant second and, of course, the Soviets wouldn't even give a thought to helping the Americans and KMT.

[xeoran]

Really? I'm working off Antony Beevors book "The Fall Of Berlin 1945" in which he states that the Americans (well, Ike, as mentioned already Simpson was pissed when the 9th had their chain pulled) were thinking of only the immediate (and very much military, Ike ignored possible post war political problems) future(which includes the scientists- and loot) and not the political post war effects. Aside from that but at the point when Simpson was held back he'd estimated (quite rightly considering how little was in his way) that he could make Berlin in 48 hours. Berlin could in fact have been very usefully because it could be used as a bargaining chip (to help free Poland like Churchill wanted for example) and for political reasons (as it is our image of the end of WW2 is the Russian on the Reichstag). Symbolic victories can be important (just think of that prat Clark who let Kesselring get away in order to take Rome), as it is the Russians could claim that they won the war (they did- but with help) whilst ignoring everyone elses contribution (particuarly American Lend Lease). Anyway...Beevor thinks (and I'm inclined to agree with him) that the Americans/Ike wanted to sort out the old world and go home (while Beevor describes the British as seeing it as just another note in regimental histories and the Russians as seeing it as a chance for revenge).

I do believe by the way that Ikes correspondance and diary/notes showed he at least felt there was a threat of a national redoubt. (Poor old Skorzeny, I remember from his first interview he was scathing [the interview was turned into a book on Special Forces and their place in warfare by the British writer who got the interview; interesting book and very much of its time]). Ike was also I think (like Rooselvelt) far too trusting of the Soviets, able to believe they were 'just like us'.

[skorzeny]

Good insights. I think all my current research has flavoured my mindset at present, concentrating a bit too much on the technological aspects and not enough on polictics. I've ordered the Fall of Berlin, but the blasted book still hasn't showed up in the mail.

[xeoran]

Ah, bad luck, the book is truly awesome (have you read his other stuff? Stalingrad/Spanish Civil War etc; they arent as good as Berlin but still very, very good.). Best of luck with it because seriously its giving me loads of ideas for AE (for example I didnt know that most Russian soldiers wrote not to family or lovers but to pen pals, similarly I didnt quite understand how much of a military idiot Hitler was. Gueridan comes out well though.

Oh and staying on Beevor, apparently he is doing a book on D-Day and has managed to bust opena few new and apparently very good American sources. Cant wait for that.

[unknowntales]

I agree with Xeoran. I recently read "Fall" and "Adolf Hitler" by John Troland for my "Into the Serpents Nest" manuscript. Both touch on that subject and indicate that Ike was planning the Redoubt attack for three reasons: Political ramifications (Russians gave up more for the war, let them have the cream of the pie: Berlin), the Redoubt (last holdout for the Nazis) would be easier to attack, and he knew how many GIs would die. He had a meeting with top generals and the fugures were horrendous. The better option was to bomb the snot out of the mountaintop retreat and capture the boss on his hill.
As for Simpson, there are two avenues of thought. Yes, the western approaches were terrible at best and he cites an example of a French unit just walking into Berlin, but as the Americans approached, the defences would have been strengthened by Hitler youth and their panzerfousts and Simpson's attack would have bogged down. I believe he could have made it in 24, but not defeated it. Remember the Zoo Flak tower was west of the Bunker, and even the Russians could not dent that fortress. I doubt the Americans could have gotten in either.

[xeoran]

Hmm, I'm not sure. Thing is Speer and many Wehrmacht would rather have had the Americans than the Soviets. Whilst there would be resistance from the most fanatical units I think the defenses might have fallen apart quite quickly. Mind you, if the Zoo Flak Tower decided to fight then yes they would be done for.

Just to say the actual figure Ike was given for Berlin was 100,000 dead G.I.'s by Bradley but even Bradley later admitted that was quite ridiculous.

[unknowntales]

They wanted peace with the Americans, so they could concentrate on the Russians. But since Himmler's secret attempts through the Sweedish consulate met cold and negative results and confirmed the Americans policy of total capitulation for the German nation, the fight went on, and on, and on until Weilding reported he had enough ammo to last the night. This had no effect on the French dead-enders, Waffen SS, Hitler Youth, some elements of the Volksturm, remaining pockets of the Wehrmacht, Kreigsmarine soldiers trapped in the city, The three towers at the Zoo Flak complex, and those loyal to Hitler. The Zoo Flak tower had an enourmous range and could site most of the city.

Sure, Speer and many Wehrmacht generals wanted peace, but either they could not get the Americans to listen, could not get Hitler to listen, or at one point it was far to late. Many had hoped the Americans would fight with the Germans, but that was a fantasy. Policy was policy. The Ardennes ruined any chance of a deal. There was five months that could have been used to negotiate, but the Battle of the Buldge made the Allies think twice about shaking hands.

[xeoran]

Yup. Apparently during the fighting on the Oder morale was so low some German officers told their men that with the acession of Truman the Allies would help them fight the Soviets...

The whole Swedish embassy affair was a total c*ck up...Plus I dont think the Western allies wanted to deal with Himmler at all. And the whole conference and total capitulation did ruin a chance to create a quick peace. (Another case of Stalin manipulating the western allies).

When it comes to the advance I think it wopuld have been more a case of trying to push through the SS/Waffen SS/Hitler Youth. Aside from the First World War vets the Volkssturm was a disgrace and the Wehrmacht often made for the Allies so as to surrender to them and not the Soviets.

I suppose too that with the end of the war so close the allied troops would have been even less effective than usual whilst of course the Russians were at their peak (individually).

And as you rightly say its doubtful the Western Allies would have listened to any peace overtures that werent unconditional and pre-Ardennes.

[unknowntales]

Excellent points. There were small contingents of Volksturm that fought hard. They died hard as well. Many had been threatened or their families threatened making them want to fight for themselves and their families. There were also entire units that had NO guns, and at 5 pm went home for the evening and returned to their posts at 9 am. Those guys are awesome.

[xeoran]

unknowntales said:

Those guys are awesome.

Unless you were one of those scum Gauleiters...

I remember one story of a Volkssturm boy (well...Hitler Youth) who as his Volkssturm comrades surrendered to the Russians pulled a sub machine gun, fired and then when not a Russian fell down he dropped the gun and began to cry. What really amuses me (in a dark way) is that the Russian sapper captain who recorded this then went on to say something like; "I felt sorry for this poor child and only struck him in the face once...".