Protean Apocrypha - Suggested Alternate Rules

[Proteus454]

Updated Below: Rohlingsoldat w/ PaK36?

*ahem* Howdy folks. I wouldn't say I USED to be a regular, but I popped up now and then back in the day. Sadly, I haven't really been keeping up with the board. However, having gotten my hot little mitts on Basra: 1946 lately, I've found myself back in an AE-WWII frame of mind. Joy!

Now, like every gamer and his brother's dog, I have my own opinions about What Should Happen Next, What Should Be Available Next and so on and so forth. I'm also smart enough to realize that whatever I can think of or suggest at this point, you nice people have probably already debated unto nigh-perfection.

Still, I've spent a little bit of time, in my armchair generalish way, fussing over this and that, and I thought I'd see what you folks thought.

Just to bring this long-winded intro/disclaimer to an end...
- I'm not an expert (as will no doubt become obvious)
- I may have missed something
- I could be wrong

So with all that out of the way, ahem~

***

(The Red Army)

When I read the first overview/background for AE-WWII years ago, I was intrigued by the description of the Soviets. Teenage boys with automatic rifles, truly fun for the whole family. It definitely sounded like a unique mix of raw manpower and heavy firepower.

But when the first book finally dropped, I was kind of taken aback. To me, it didn't really jive (still doesn't) that the USSR STILL doesn't have enough guns for its many, many soldiers, even with the breaking up by Stalin himself of the dreaded Soviet Steamroller. In fact, given that they've had SOME time overall to catch their breath, wouldn't this be a rather serious concern they'd want to address.

Surely, I thought, there'd at least be enough old Mosin-Nagants lying around, to say nothing of all those SMGs. On flection, though, I imagined that the switch to the SVT-40 would have been sooner and smoother in this higher-tech past. And as to 4-strong units with the PPSh, well, that would just be a game balance issue ^^;

None of which altered the fact that not only are the Conscripts clearly wielding assault rifles and SMGs, half of them aren't even doing that. The WYSIWYG part of my brain yelped in protest. But what to do?


The answer came in Over The Wire, the British "Rifle Drill" rule. So the nice people at Darkson have already legitimized the idea that a model can have certain aspects of its training emphasized or deemphasized, separate from the Green/Regular/Veteran/Elite scale. Once I internalized that, the rest was easy.

So, without further adue, I humbly present Protean Apocrypha - Red Army Conscript Soldiers.


Conscript Soldiers - Alternate
Green Infantry (Squad)
M3 RC5+ CC2 A2 S2 Dr3 W1
Composition: 4 Red Army Conscripts
Equipment: Assorted Rifles (treat as SVT-40)
Special Abilities: Condensed Training
Options: Increase to Regular; Exchange Rifle for PPSh-41

Condensed Training: So great is the Motherland's peril in this, her greatest hour of need, that the courageous Red Army must send its brave soldiers to the frontline with only cursory training in the use and maintenance of their firearms. The RoF of any weapon wielded by this model is cut in half (i.e. An SVT-40 becomes 1:2, and the PPSh-41 becomes 2:1)

[Proteus454]

(Sorry for breaking this up into two posts, but it was turning into a horrible Wall Of Text as it is. *ahem*)

The Arisaka

Speaking of drills, it strikes as me as a little...fiddly that Move-and-fire is considered a property of the Arisaka & Co. itself as opposed to being part of the soldier's training. Once again, the example of the British Army's Rifle Drill provided the answer.

I therefore suggest the following modifications to the IJA Army List in OTW #17...


Bayonet Drill: Close combat, and getting there, is at the heart of Japanese tactical doctrine. Even irregulars in Japanese service frequently move with intent to reach close quarters. An Arisaka Type 38, Arisaka Type 99 or Type 44 Carbine carried by this model gains the Move and Fire trait.

Make the following changes to the units listed below:
- Gunzoku, IJA Regulars, IJA Sergeant, IJA Heavy Weapons Team, IJA Combat Engineers, Jungle Fighters, Radio Operator (Equipment: Add "Bayonet", Special Rules: Add "Bayonet Drill")
- IJA Cavalry, IJA Cavalry Sergeant, Takasago Raiders (Special Rules: Add "Bayonet Drill")

Daisho: Literally "Great-Small" or "The Big And The Small" if memory serves, the term traditionally refers to a samurai's ceremonial weapon set - that is, the katana and wakizashi. So those things Field Ninjas can have? The mechanics are good, but they're not Daisho. More like "Paired Blades". (This is kind of a nit-pick, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine. Like calling a Katana a "Ninja Sword" - ARGH!)

***

The Valentine

Given that the Valentine is smaller and weighs less than, say, the Sherman or Cromwell (both rated as MEDIUM tanks), not to mention that as it stands there's nothing to rate it over the Churchill (an actual Heavy), I heartily recommend the following change as a house-rule if nothing else.


Infantry Tank Mk III Valentine XI
Role: Medium Tank
Special Abilities:
(as listed, except) Piggy-back (4)

[abbysdad]

Welcome back to the forum! Thanks for the comments.

Sept 27, 2010 19:54:54 GMT -5 Proteus454 said:

The Arisaka

Speaking of drills, it strikes as me as a little...fiddly that Move-and-fire is considered a property of the Arisaka & Co. itself as opposed to being part of the soldier's training. Once again, the example of the British Army's Rifle Drill provided the answer.

I therefore suggest the following modifications to the IJA Army List in OTW #17...


Bayonet Drill: Close combat, and getting there, is at the heart of Japanese tactical doctrine. Even irregulars in Japanese service frequently move with intent to reach close quarters. An Arisaka Type 38, Arisaka Type 99 or Type 44 Carbine carried by this model gains the Move and Fire trait.

Make the following changes to the units listed below:
- Gunzoku, IJA Regulars, IJA Sergeant, IJA Heavy Weapons Team, IJA Combat Engineers, Jungle Fighters, Radio Operator (Equipment: Add "Bayonet", Special Rules: Add "Bayonet Drill")
- IJA Cavalry, IJA Cavalry Sergeant, Takasago Raiders (Special Rules: Add "Bayonet Drill")

Well, I guess that's a valid critique. We might put the move and fire on the unit descriptions, and not the gun when the book comes out. I don't think bayonet drill makes much sense though. The important thing here is that the Japanese have bayonets. They put them on everything! Even light machine guns. After that, just based on culture, they knew how to stick the pointy end into the other guy.

But remember that the IJA combat engineers do not have banzai. That was intentional, and not a typo. Also the Gunzuko are only subject to banzai if they have a Japanese minder within 6 inches of them.

Daisho: Literally "Great-Small" or "The Big And The Small" if memory serves, the term traditionally refers to a samurai's ceremonial weapon set - that is, the katana and wakizashi. So those things Field Ninjas can have? The mechanics are good, but they're not Daisho. More like "Paired Blades". (This is kind of a nit-pick, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine. Like calling a Katana a "Ninja Sword" - ARGH!)

Gonna have to disagree with you about the daisho comment.

Yes, actually, the ninja used daisho. And the kind of sword wrestling and close quarters attacks you do with Daisho is not ceremonial, whether you are trained in samurai or ninja arts. A blade may be ceremonial or intended for combat, but that rarely had anything to do with the size and shape or type of blade and everything to do with the kit which comprised the mekugi (pieces that held the blade pins in), saia (scabbard), tsuba (sword guard) and how the ken (blade) was made. At least, that's what my teachers in Japan have told me.

Ninjas can have daisho and did use them. They were expensive if composed of quality blades though. Don't forget that the Niten Ryu (two heavens school) developed by Mushashi is considered a school of ninjutsu as well and it makes extensive use of paired weapons and daisho. Also, all of the schools of ninjutsu that were surviving at the time of WWII (that we know of) had a significant exposure and some cross training in samurai budo. So they definitely would have known how to use daisho, especially for the purposes of assassination, hostage taking or just having another weapon to use after you lost the first one.

Finally, you do use daisho as paired weapons. And a ninja with two swords is way more cool than a ninja with just one! ;D

You take advantage of the difference in lengths when fighting indoors, taking hostages, or attacking armored opponents. There are lots of techniques where the katana is placed on the waki so that it can be quickly flipped into position to catch an opponent off guard. The Yagyushinkage sword school did a lot of things like this ("gift and threat").

Anyway, if you're really interested in all this stuff, come to our budo taijutsu class here in Pittsburgh when we we're working with togakure ryu ninjutsu or kukishinden ryu bikenjutsu. Both schools have lots of fun opportunities to play with daisho

The Valentine

Given that the Valentine is smaller and weighs less than, say, the Sherman or Cromwell (both rated as MEDIUM tanks), not to mention that as it stands there's nothing to rate it over the Churchill (an actual Heavy), I heartily recommend the following change as a house-rule if nothing else.


Infantry Tank Mk III Valentine XI
Role: Medium Tank
Special Abilities:
(as listed, except) Piggy-back (4)

You're free to do whatever you like. Make up whatever house rules you want. Just so long as you're having a good time with friends.

Cheers,

Chris

[skorzeny]

The Valentine was employed in a heavy tank role by the British military, regardless of its shortcomings in that capacity.

[CmdrKiley]

I do like the idea of Bayonet Drill for the Japanese, combining Bayonet and Move & Fire weapon traits into a unit ability. That makes more sense.

The rifle itself doesn't have the inherent traits of Move & Fire, nor does it come with an integral bayonet. I think it would work in future applications of the Arisaka rifle when it may be in the hands of other lesser quality troops who may not practice the bayonet charge.

[Proteus454]

Re: Bayonet Drill/Banzai - I saw that the Combat Engineers and Gunzoku don't have Banzai (or only conditionally) but my concern was for streamlining/standardizing the mechanics somewhat. Specifically as it applied to Arisakas and moving and firing. I admit the name is a little inelegant/misleading though...anyone got a better idea? Seriously.

Re: Daisho - Ah. I see. To clarify, I'm aware that the katana and wakizashi (or the first one, at least) weren't just "ceremonial", and that you DID see them used in pairs sometimes. It was just my understanding that a Daisho was something very specific, a katana and a wakizashi, as opposed to being just a pair of any particular swords. But hey, fair enough.

Re: Valentine - I hear what you're saying, Skorzeny, but "employed in a heavy tank role" does not a Heavy Tank make. There were plenty of "light" Infantry Tanks, no? What I'm saying is that the Light/Medium/Heavy thing - once again, I'm talking in terms of game mechanics here - looks to be pretty objective and related to actual mass, as opposed to how said kit was used. I politely stand by my "Medium role, reduced Piggy-back count" suggestions.

[skorzeny]

Mechanics wise, it is a pretty feeble heavy tank, but then not everything is fair in war or history. We decided early on to stick to the way tanks were used when deciding on designations in order to keep things, not balanced, but reflective of the war. One of our game designers was trying to skew things the other way and as a result the earliest 'tank' rules included all sorts of non-tank AFVs like the StuG III and Soviet self-propelled artillery in an effort to maintain complete equality.

So, we're just going to stick to the way the tanks were used by the armies that used them. When it comes time for Italian and Japanese armour to make their appearance, you'll see some really imbalanced tanks. But, hey, that's why these armies suffered in armoured engagements!

[Proteus454]

I think it's a mistake to make a fetish of Being Just Like The War and suchlike, especially given that this isn't a movie, recreation or even (arguably) a simulation. It's a game.

It's also important to point out that I'm not asking for "complete equality" here - I'm asking for a contrast/comparison that isn't a complete no-brainer. I mean, there's literally no reason not to take a Churchill instead of a Valentine. Even aside from the "fairness" argument, it begs the question of why the Valentine is even in there in the first place. You could just as easily have written the Valentine out entirely, say the production was switched wholesale to Churchills, Cromwells, etc.

Now, I'm not a playtester or nothing and therefore must defer to your expertise re: the theory and rationale behind the game design (in my defense, it did SEEM to be based on weight). Nor am I a historical expert, but I will say we seem to be conflating the light/heavy dichotomy with (say) the Cruiser Tank/Infantry Tank dichotomy. And I think that bumping the Valentine back down to Mediumweight where it belongs doesn't actually fly in the face of "the way tanks were used by the armies that used them".

(...and why NOT have a StuG III or light SPA as a "tank" - that is to say, for the purposes of fielding it in a Tank Detachment? Seems to me like up in the front lines, supporting groups of infantry is precisely where you'd want them to be. Heck, from where I'm standing, you wouldn't even need to change any rules, really. Just apply the gunner/loader positions to the hull weapon instead of the nonexistent turret. I think? Sorry, I digress.)

[skorzeny]

Well, as you say, we agree to disagree. Following the historical roles of these vehicles is how we've chosen to maintain, if not balance, then a defensible position as to why things are the way they are. You can play the game in any fashion you like.

Down the line, there will be detachments with access to things like self-propelled artillery and tank destroyers, but those will be handled differently (and have different options than) standard tank detachments.

[Scorpio]

Sept 29, 2010 16:05:14 GMT -5 Proteus454 said:

I mean, there's literally no reason not to take a Churchill instead of a Valentine. Even aside from the "fairness" argument, it begs the question of why the Valentine is even in there in the first place. You could just as easily have written the Valentine out entirely, say the production was switched wholesale to Churchills, Cromwells, etc.

As a side note: if they left out the Valentines, someone, somewhere would bug them to put them in. Gamers are just like that. It's easier for them to include them, even as a suboptimal choice, because hey, if you don't want to take anything but the best, you don't have to.

Also, the game can be played historically, by both players choosing not to take the weird units.

So, yeah. Better to include more than less.

[Proteus454]

Here's another one I thought of, folks. With the mighty Rohlingsoldat rolling (harhar) up Allied positions hither and thither as a proven product of Sonderbuero 13, it struck me that - just as the Buffalo may come to carry different toys - so too might they find different ordnance to give the Ogres to schlep around.

A similar idea idea from another Weird War setting, specifically a zombified artillerist carrying around an old AT gun (a PaK Mule, harharharharhar), provided the idea. Where previously an SD commander had to compromise between anti-infantry effectiveness and heavy punch, you can now split the difference.

Here, I've made a little conceptual drawing...



...and I think we can all agree we'd all be better off if I inflict concept art on you less in the future >.< Anyhow!


Rohlingsoldat - Proposed Alteration
Option: Exchange weapon for PaK36

PaK36 (Rohlingsoldat Issue): Range 36", S3+2d6, RoF 1:2; 1.5" AoE, Armour Piercing*, Belt-fed, Can target point on the battlefield*, -1 to hit non-vehicle*
* - As per Tank Guns, see Basra: 1946.

(Notes: I kind of cobbled the stats together with little to go on but 37mm guns in Basra. I figured carrying over the reduced AP and some of the targeting issues made sense, especially given that it's an addled, muscle-bound mutant lugging the thing around instead of a trained gunner.)

[pixelgeek]

I suspect that the recoil would knock him on his butt. :-)

[beermonkey]

LOL!! Keep up the great artwork. Loving it!

But seriously I can see someone trying this. But I might ensure that it's Cumbersome. Like the man said will but your on your butt if you're not braced, even the big Ogres.

[Scorpio]

Seriously, I think we should hire you on for all the concept art.