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Post by hammerzeit on May 13, 2010 4:38:16 GMT -5
I've played several games now, and I and the people I've played with have all noted how powerful Hidden Deployment can be. It is my opinion that Hidden Deployment should also require that you not deploy within Line of Sight of an enemy model. It makes more sense that the unit was hiding out of sight, then popping randomly out of nowhere in the middle of an advancing column of enemy soldiers.
One of the most egregious abuses of this rule (by me, admittedly ;D) is the OSS agent with Rocket Hero. He can deploy just outside the 10" radius, fly in and move-and-shoot most units to pieces on turn one, before mincing away to safety behind a wall or building. On top of that, he has Flight so he can just hop over buildings with no problems.
On top of that, there is no way to properly defend against someone who is using Hidden Deployment. They can appear anywhere, even within line of sight and simply begin firing. It leads to both sides trying to use as many Hidden Deployers as possible, and makes the game more about sudden dice rolling than strategy and positioning, in my experience. I have had most of my detachment wiped out by a single Elite Hidden Deploying Soviet Officer (using the Scouting Special Order), a game which I only narrowly won with a risky frontal assault with my T-4.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?
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Post by abbysdad on May 13, 2010 8:31:18 GMT -5
Yes, hidden deployment is a valuable skill. The worst offense that I've seen are an OSS sapper hero with a satchel charge. Hidden deploy, move, boom! The hidden deply rocket trooper is another good one. And then there are the SS werewolves  Awesome models, but I hate facing those guys. The points you bring up are being discussed by the play testers. If you can, play a few games with the changes you recommend and let us know how it turns out. Cheers, Chris |
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Post by CmdrKiley on May 13, 2010 9:13:59 GMT -5
Usually I've found that Hidden Deployment can be a hit/miss sort of thing. If done well, can be devastating, it not it can lead to the loss of a valuable model. In most cases I've seen an OSS Agent pop up do a lot of shooting but not always kill everything and then either realize he dosn't have enough AP to find cover or has spent all of his AP and not killed enough to escape retribution.
There are ways of countering that when you know you opponent has a Hidden Deployment model ready to drop on you. First deploy your models such that they cover each other. Spread them out enough such that the Hidden Deployment model is forced into a space where you can expect him. Also there's a Special Order, Guard Dogs, that negates Hidden Deployment models. It's always nice to drop that on your opponent when he announces he's going to place his HD model.
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Post by skorzeny on May 13, 2010 10:21:00 GMT -5
Many factions will be getting models that have a skill called 'Secret Police' that will also allow you to cancel a Hidden Deployment by the enemy, which would be helpful for players having problems dealing with these kinds of tactics. I think an SO or a counter-active model is the best way to balance Hidden Deployment rather than a rules change.
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Post by CmdrKiley on May 13, 2010 11:31:27 GMT -5
When your opponent has his strategy based on a sneak attack from a Hidden Deployment model, has already deployed the rest of his models and his opponent drops a SO restrcting his Hidden Deployment model....thats the start of a bad day.
With something like that potentially in your opponent's hand, relying on HD models might work against you.
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Post by hammerzeit on May 13, 2010 14:44:06 GMT -5
I think an SO or a counter-active model is the best way to balance Hidden Deployment rather than a rules change. I would have to respectfully disagree. Doing something like, in my opinion, just forces you to have to take more 'fluff' just to counter something specific in the opponent's build, which pushes out room for more useful selections in the already tight unit allotment. I don't think it really addresses the problem, it just causes 'power inflation' for lack of a better term. I've played too many miniature wargames where you were forced to use units to 'counter' other newer units, instead of just fixing the rules as they stand. @ Others: Of course, Hidden Deployment is sort of a suicide tactic, but it's so devastating and it's easy to get units with Hidden Deployment that are more or less disposable compared to the damage they can do (Werewolves, lookin' at you). Without an effective "Overwatch" system in AE-WWII it just means that most units have little to no way of defending themselves. |
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Post by grumpysmurf on May 13, 2010 15:49:42 GMT -5
It's usually pretty easy to counter HD knowing your opponent is fielding a hidden troop it's not to hard to set yourself up to counter act it. Worse case is you ensure you have multiple lines of fire, you may loose one guy but after that he gets gunned down.
It's a risks vs reward situation, sometimes they work and other times not so much. In the end it's never good to bring a knife to a gun fight.
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Post by gabus on May 16, 2010 13:04:00 GMT -5
I have been using 2 werewolves in my detachment, with mixed success.
Having to deploy them on the first turn is a huge counter to hidden deployment. I would so rather hold them for later turns to pop out, but that would REALLY make it overpowered.
The werewolves usually behave like a one shot suicide weapon. I have about a 50/50 kill rate with the initial attack, and then I am standing in the middle of the enemy encampment surrounded by guns. I usually lose the werewolf regardless of whether or not I kill my initial target. (everyone is more than willing to shoot into close combat at the thing)
Once I lose the wolf, my drive starts dropping, and I end up with drive problems army wide. So, even if the strategy works, I usually end up paying for it. I think it is pretty balanced for troopers who have no guns... but for something that pops, shoots, and scoots out of LoS, thats a bigger problem. A nerf to the hidden deployment rules could be pretty detrimental to pure CC troops.
Bear in mind, I have played all of about 5-6 games at this point, so a small test sample.
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Post by abbysdad on May 16, 2010 20:29:02 GMT -5
Yes.
IMO, the drive penalty is the ultimate equalizer for the hidden deployment rules.
If you HD an officer/hero that is really dangerous, most of the time they have little to no support and will get shot to pieces.
The loss of a hero or multiple units really eats into your ability to stay in the game, gain objectives, and weather losses from other units.
There are times when HD will make you think it is the most over powered thing you have ever seen. Just like the artillery barrage. But most of the time, it works out OK and is not the game winner.
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Post by gabus on May 17, 2010 19:16:12 GMT -5
Yes. Just like the artillery barrage. But most of the time, it works out OK and is not the game winner. My poor Krieghexe had one dropped on her head on Saturday. She was "gremlining" an American jeep that was driving around ramming things. Apparently, gremlins only shut down weapons and vehicle movement, but leave radios perfectly fine as the crew of the Jeep radiod an artillery strike on my poor Krieghexe. When the smoke cleared, she was gone, and so too was some of my drive.  |
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Post by Darkson on May 18, 2010 22:01:39 GMT -5
From the design side Matt and I play tested the hell out of HD and in the end it was not a game winner. It might help you out a bit but as you guys pointed out it is also a huge risk to the played using it. With the next book we have included some more rules that further mess up players that depend on HD. Secret Police is gonna wreck havoc with HD players.  |
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Post by hammerzeit on May 21, 2010 23:42:11 GMT -5
From the design side Matt and I play tested the hell out of HD and in the end it was not a game winner. It might help you out a bit but as you guys pointed out it is also a huge risk to the played using it. With the next book we have included some more rules that further mess up players that depend on HD. Secret Police is gonna wreck havoc with HD players. Ok, well that's good to hear. Is there any possibility of some sort of 'overwatch' system being added to AE-WWII? I am envisioning a system where you can act during an opponent's turn in response to one of their actions. |
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Post by Darkson on May 22, 2010 2:54:51 GMT -5
As of right now no.
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Post by abbysdad on May 22, 2010 13:49:05 GMT -5
Ok, well that's good to hear. Is there any possibility of some sort of 'overwatch' system being added to AE-WWII? I am envisioning a system where you can act during an opponent's turn in response to one of their actions. Yeah, what Rob said. Secret Police is going to be fun! I have images of Clint cackling as he wrote up those rules RE: Overwatch in AE-WWII. In the sense that it existed in Necromunda and old editions of 40K? Probably not. But you never know what the future will bring. There kind of already are similar mechanisms in the game right now, without the added complexity of randomly interrupting a You-Go-I-go alternating activation sequence. The ability to gain the first activation of a game turn based on drive (and with some models coming soon additional benefits to the roll) is very powerful. If you set up your order of activation properly, a sniper can take out a pesky mini before they get to do anything that turn. There are also the "keep on moving" and "coordinated attack" special orders. Those let you supercede the activation order to accomplish a specific tactical goal on the board and prevent your opponent's activation from interrupting you. That being said, with your own games of AE-WWII, you can have your own house rules. If you and your mates like playing with an overwatch rule, do it. Write up the results of your battles and let us know how it comes out. We do read these boards quite a bit and we do have conversations based on the topics that come up here. All the best, Chris |
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Post by noblehero on Oct 12, 2010 13:23:25 GMT -5
The worst I have seen Hidden Deployment was in a game yesterday. Using an OSS Agent Brute (my Hellboy model), I was able to deploy 10" away, walk up getting pistol shots without cover on my way in before putting the Agent in close combat with his Officer.
He either had to shoot into combat risking his officer and the only model he had to manage drive and with 4 wounds plus unstoppable he was unlikely to take out the OSS Agent without killing his own officer first or try to come melee . He opted for melee but with the Brute's increased melee skills, plus extra wounds, it took a long time to dislodge the Agent who managed to kill multiple units in the process.
I have to say, it didn't even really seem fair. I think requiring the 10" and not in LoS seems reasonable.
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Awesome models, but I hate facing those guys.
