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Post by bsantucci on Jul 17, 2008 9:01:14 GMT -5
There really aren't any smg teams in the game except for psi-commandos. Any chance of getting any or even giving gaurd SMG's? ;D
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Post by recon63 on Jul 17, 2008 9:29:30 GMT -5
would definately like the option to equip some of my troops with mp40's
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Post by gimp on Jul 17, 2008 12:22:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't have a problem with someone wanting to play with them.
The Psi Commandos already can exchange there SVT-40's for PPSh-41's without cost, so why not allow it for other infantry units?
That change is from S 4 and 24" to S3 and 18", but also going from ROF 1 to ROF 4.
Letting US Airborne go from ROF 2 to ROF 3 with the rest the same is not that big a change.
Letting Werhmacht Regular Infantry go from S4 ROF 2 to S3 ROF 3 is even less of a change, as you exchange S for ROF.
Letting Soviet Guard Regular Infantry would be no different than the Psi Commando stat shift.
Considering the Soviet Conscript Soldiers have a couple of models that look like they have SMG's already, and you could allow all the green units to go that route as well.
It wouldn't be official, but that doesn't matter unless you're in an official event. For fun games, you should be happy to experiment.
I've got models I can use, but I'd love to see Darkson put out more SMG models. OK, I admit it, I'm just looking forward to Darkson putting out more models.
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Post by bsantucci on Jul 17, 2008 16:26:30 GMT -5
Your answers make sense to me. Thanks!! ;D
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Post by sylvas on Jul 17, 2008 21:35:01 GMT -5
I think that you have to think somewhat historically about the reasons why this isn't an option...the Psi-Commandos are set up to be an elite special forces unit (not literally an Elite in the game, but you get what I mean)...Soviet Guard troops are supposed to be something akin to the Guardievsky batallions that were instrumental in the defense of Stalingrad, and they were armed as the bulk of the Soviet troops, with the SVT variant rifle...
using something like this as an example, the rules could infer that arming more troops with SMG wouldn't be an option not because the changes would be overbalancing, but it is trying to simulate economical and logistics decisions...
or maybe it was just an oversight...either way, that's my opinion...
B...
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Post by malkcntent on Jul 17, 2008 22:19:02 GMT -5
or maybe it was just an oversight...either way, that's my opinion... My thinking as well, sylvas. Not enough Thompsons running around to equip every airborne. Same for MP40's. -Matthew |
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Post by recon63 on Jul 18, 2008 1:58:23 GMT -5
what about for veteran detachments, those guys have usually been around and know what equipment is better for certain situations, and can usually "re-allocate" such resources, ie smg's over bolt-action rifles.....etc
just my thoughts
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Post by Darkson on Jul 18, 2008 2:11:25 GMT -5
I think you will be very happy with the German Green choice in the Occult book.  |
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Post by tordenskjold on Jul 18, 2008 5:17:40 GMT -5
I think that you have to think somewhat historically about the reasons why this isn't an option...the Psi-Commandos are set up to be an elite special forces unit (not literally an Elite in the game, but you get what I mean)...Soviet Guard troops are supposed to be something akin to the Guardievsky batallions that were instrumental in the defense of Stalingrad, and they were armed as the bulk of the Soviet troops, with the SVT variant rifle... using something like this as an example, the rules could infer that arming more troops with SMG wouldn't be an option not because the changes would be overbalancing, but it is trying to simulate economical and logistics decisions... or maybe it was just an oversight...either way, that's my opinion... B... Actually, it wasn't any great logistical problem to equip troops with smgs. Both the soviets and the Germans did this on a large scale, the soviets arming entire battalions of conscripts with PPSH guns and the Germans creating the "Volksgrenadier" units armed with MP40s or other smgs/assault rifles. The idea was that even poorly trained troops would probably be able to hit something if they had enough firepower at their disposal. The problem was that most WWII smgs had a max range of something like 50-100 meters, meaning that the troops had to get dagerously close to the enemy in order to engage them. As for fielding more smg armed troops, I say make an unoffcial Volksgrenadier unit for the germans, and PPsh armed conscripts for the soviets. Something like: Volksgrenadiers:Green infantry Stats: As volksturm Composition: 2 volksgrenadiers Equipment: Mp40s (Maybe an option of exchanging the MPs for StGs?) Soviet conscript assault infantry:Green infantry Stats: As conscrpits Composition: 3 Assult conscripts Equipment: PPSh-41 The thinking behind these quickly created rules is that the increased firepower offered by the smgs makes of for the decrease in squad members. Hope this canm be used for something  |
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fattdex
Lieutenant
Halt! Hammerzeit!
Posts: 464
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Post by fattdex on Jul 18, 2008 6:55:19 GMT -5
I think you will be very happy with the German Green choice in the Occult book. You're killing me  |
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Post by bsantucci on Jul 18, 2008 8:30:40 GMT -5
I really appreciate all the input!! ;D ;D
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Post by gimp on Jul 19, 2008 11:24:43 GMT -5
It wasn't just the green units that were armed with SMG's.
Soviet Guard and Panzergrenadiers (even SS Panzergrenadiers) were sometimes formed with an SMG armed platoon as a close assault unit.
It wasn't official with the US, but GI's were famous for scrounging extra weapons, so on a small scale it fits.
SMG's have a limited range compared to a rifle, but in forests, mountains, or especially in cities, the limitations are offset somewhat by the increased rate of fire.
I'd love to see official units with SMG's, and Soviet infantry with Mosin Nagants (it takes a while to convert that big an army to semi-auto rifles). Until then, some current units allow the change without cost, so I'm happy to house rule the others the option. The added variety and history work for me.
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Post by sylvas on Jul 19, 2008 15:07:16 GMT -5
I do agree that it would make sense for the Regular units like Wehrmacht and Soviet Guard to have the option for SMGs, but not green troops...with the exception of the PPsH, which I believe was stamped, most SMGs would have been too expensive to give to raw troops...
also, the Soviet philosophy of sending the horde of troops forward would be an argument against this as well...Soviet commanders intentionally kept higher rate of fire weapons in the hands of troops that they could trust to not shoot them when their backs were turned...that is one of several reason why most Soviet recruits were not armed at all, like the rules have currently with only half of the squad armed...Soviet commanders were afraid that if more of the men, especially non-Russians like Armenians, Azeri, and most of all Cossack stock were armed at all, they would shoot the commanders at the first chance they had...
but that being said, I would like to be able to give my Soviet Guard some PPsH...
B...
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Post by evernevermore(john) on Jul 19, 2008 17:04:42 GMT -5
Well this is where it gets complicated
All factions should have atleast one prewar SMG that like the Thompson were expensive but accurate and reliable. However part way though the war all the powers had created cheap SMGs - for example the British Sten was eventually produced for about 5 dollars. The US had the M3 Grease Gun and the Reising which was less expensive then the Thompson, more expensive then the Grease gun and hugely sensitive to dirt (which is why the Marines in the Pacific who were issued it disliked it so intensely). The British had the Sten and the Sterling, and had a copy of the prewar German Mp28. The Germans had the mp40, again a cheap stamped gun, but once the StG44/45 got into production the High Command tried to force it through as a replacement for both the K98 and the Mp40 (it was actually well suited to that - a nice change from many replacements that military forces have done). Even the Australians and the Japanese had cheap guns, though given Japanese history of firearm design I personally would not touch thier SMG.
Soviets get complicated when it comes to weapons - for example they didnt send units into battle half armed because they didnt trust them. The did that because they fully expected casualties to exceed 50%. In fact the troops that were given rifles where usually only given one extra stripper clip of ammo, and the unarmed troops carried considerably more as they would be taking the rifles from the dead, so they might need to reload however much the first or fifth guy shot off.
Remeber the Russians used entire squads armed with PPsHs riding on tanks, as they protected the tank from soldiers getting close with anti tank weapons, and the tanks provided needed mobility and heavy firepower to the unit.
And modelling the Mosin Nagant equipped units isnt too terribly hard - if you have access to the mauser arm from the german models (I used one from the Greatcoat blister). As I own both a nagant and a mauser k I can tell you at 28mm scale anyone who can tell the difference between the rifles has too much freetime, eyesight beyound 20/20, or is just being pissy.
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Post by sylvas on Jul 20, 2008 0:21:55 GMT -5
if some of the things that I have read in the past are accurate, and a couple of them I do question, units like the tank riders were armed with SMGs because the theory was that the tank would get them close so that their relatively short range wasn't a problem, and the riders would be able to defend a tank when it was assaulted, assuming that they were blown off from the tank taking fire...
I just use some of my examples of games that I have played recently...my one Psi Officer was able to lay some waste against some Germans (some of that was due to luck, I do admit to that), and all he had was 3 actions, some cover, and the Clouded Mind power...now add this to a Soviet Guard unit (or 2) that may have that option, when you could have a unit that potentially could have 16 shots...
yikes...
B...
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