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Post by tordenskjold on Jul 7, 2006 13:06:49 GMT -5
Except there is no good side of war the sad fact.
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Post by malika on Jul 7, 2006 13:08:07 GMT -5
But war does enforce a nation to rework its technological innovations, just look at how much WWII brought. Rockets, spacerace, nuclear energy, medical improvements etc etc. WWI brought plastic surgery for example.
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Post by tordenskjold on Jul 7, 2006 13:20:49 GMT -5
The Iran vs. Iraq war brought absolutly nothing, neither did Korea, Vietnam or USSR vs. Afghanistan. (Oh, Taleban of course, but I wouldent call that a good thing)
EDIT: Off topic, but an important discussion.
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Post by xeoran on Jul 8, 2006 6:42:08 GMT -5
Well war does bring out sharing, breaks class bonds, allows generosity, heroism, comradeship etc.
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Post by malika on Jul 8, 2006 7:55:59 GMT -5
The Iran vs. Iraq war brought absolutly nothing, neither did Korea, Vietnam or USSR vs. Afghanistan. (Oh, Taleban of course, but I wouldent call that a good thing) EDIT: Off topic, but an important discussion. Iran-Iraq brought the US a way to screw over Nicaraguq (Iran-Contra affair), Vietnam brought all sorts of new military technology which would later on be used in civilian ways. Many of the technology we have today is first used in a military way, for example computers or the internet. The war in Afghanistan called for the removal of soviet imperialism in that area. The previous more clear battles between states showed how important once own sovereinty is, especially in the case of Vietnam, Afghanistan and now in a certain way (eventhough I dont fully agree with it) in Iraq. But yeah...let me get back on that in a few months after I finished my course on conflict, trauma and reconciliation.
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Post by xeoran on Jul 24, 2006 15:55:43 GMT -5
The Iran vs. Iraq war brought absolutly nothing, neither did Korea, Vietnam or USSR vs. Afghanistan. (Oh, Taleban of course, but I wouldent call that a good thing) EDIT: Off topic, but an important discussion. Iran-Iraq brought the US a way to screw over Nicaraguq (Iran-Contra affair), Is that really a good thing?
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Post by Darkson on Jul 24, 2006 15:57:34 GMT -5
Lets try to keep this to a WWII topic.
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Post by xeoran on Jul 24, 2006 16:12:21 GMT -5
Lets try to keep this to a WWII topic. Well if you insist...! I think something else we have to contemplate was Allied servicemen killing Waffen SS and Japanese soldiers in cold blood as well as the truly horrible crimes of the Imperial Japanese army (who frankly were worse than even the Russians and Germans.)
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Post by skorzeny on Jul 25, 2006 6:29:18 GMT -5
Yep, war brings out the worst in everybody after awhile. Omar Bradley, who is considered one of the most humane, if that term is appropriate, commanders in the ETO even issued an order about not 'wanting to hear too much about snipers being taken prisoner'.
I also read a blackly amusing annecdote from a veteran of the Wessex Wyverns who related that his squad was being harrassed by a sniper in a tree. There was a Churchill nearby and the tank commander asked what all the fuss was about. The PIB's pointed out the tree where the sniper was. The tank crew soon sorted it out, blasting the tree with their main cannon, then running over the tree and whatever was in it!
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Post by xeoran on Jul 25, 2006 8:14:06 GMT -5
Wessex Wyverns? A nickname?
Yes, I'm pretty sure* my Grandfather shot some Japanese prisoners from revenge (namely after they killed local villagers- he was a VERY moral man and found such things disgusting). He was disgusted though with the Japanese armies notions of racial superiority, treatment of prisoners (his men were Indian and so suffered worse than white men)- he also helped capture several "POW camps" and "Internment areas", suicidal throwaway tactics (civilian shields, kamikaze and banzai) and the like. The Japanese of course are the worst human rights abusers in the war (and before- anyone here know the Jpanese campaigns in Manchuria and the rest of China).
*My Grandfather didnt talk about the war really, he was with the Indian Army in the Royal Artillery (apparently he almost never fired an artillery piece as the war was too close and dirty). Suffice to say he was in Singapore, Burma, Malaya, Java, India (and possibly Papa New Guinea) and escaped from capture several times (as well as at one point leading a Dutch unit, killing quite a lot of men, often with his hands or in CC, being stranded ina jolly boat after escaping Japanese capture [was captured once or twice but escaped] with 8 men, 4 of whom died before they reached Java of heat exhaustion and lack of water, fighting from '40-45 and more.). An example of learning something of his war exploits can be found in one of my fathers anecdotes, he was watching a film while his father read the paper. In the film (a war film probably) they held an amputation without equipment or drugs (ie holding the man down while still concious) at which my father mentioned idly how difficult it looked, my grandfather then looked up and said something like "Not really, I did it like that several times" before going back to the paper.
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Post by skorzeny on Jul 25, 2006 14:52:04 GMT -5
Wow, you should take extensive notes and write a book about your grandfather's experiences during the war (allowing he'd be agreeable). I'd certainly read it.
I really do get incensed when one is constantly hit over the head with German atrocities over the war but the Japanese get a 'pass' because it was their culture. That doesn't make it right and the IJA committed atrocities I don't think the 20th century saw again until the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or possibly Idi Amin in Uganda. They have a simply appaling track record on human rights, despicable in fact, and trying to excuse such acts on a cultural basis is simply inconscionable.
Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now. It is just one of the topics guaranteed to set me off. I feel the same way about Aztec Indians - probably the one time in history when a civilization really did need to be wiped from the face of the earth. I also get annoyed when people use a western bias on WWII. Manchuria and the Chinese weren't seperate from the war - they were the war. Things might not have got rolling in the west until '39, but in the Pacific, WWII starts in 1932 when the Japs roll into 'Manchukuo'.
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Post by xeoran on Jul 26, 2006 4:08:33 GMT -5
I'd love to write a book but unfortunately he died in 1989 (lung cancer- likew most front line soldiers he smoked a lot). As it is the only thing we actually know is where he went because he did write down a timeline of his journies. Aside from that most of the information- like the part where landing on Java in a jolly boat he ended up leading Dutch Army units (He might have mentioned the size, I believe it was a company or two of men) are throwaway lines from him (like the amputation story I mentioned). As it is he never really talked because like I say he killed a lot of men and lost a lot too.
I do agree with you totally, the Japanese atrocities are entirely ignored despite them killing more than probably Stalin and Hitler put together (during WW2 anyway, figures for the Five Year plans, pre war purges and Russian Civil War might be too large). Culture really is no excuse and one that is never used when it happens to be westerners (I find this a lot if talking about things like the British versus Turkish/Roman/Mongol Empires or when historians talk about the Crusades). I do think you have to be sensetive to a culture but genocide is inexcusable and the Japanese were by far the army with the worst track record. On the other hand I dont agree with the Aztecs. No civilisation should be wiped off the earth, it should be taught to correct itself. The Spanish approach was overboard even in those days (plus slavery is the one institution I hate most, I could love the British Empire just for banning it and then enforcing that over the world until slavery became uncommon). Still the greatest mistake people makein history today is judging the past by our morals.
As you say the Pacific war started in '32, China being the real beginning. Thank goodness for "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell then.
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Post by tordenskjold on Aug 5, 2006 3:15:06 GMT -5
Your grandfather sounds like one fine soldier, I am always awed when I hear about what those poor allied soldiers went through just to win that war, and my respect for them continue to increase with every war story I hear and every memorial I see (ever been to Normandy? The sheer amount of soldiers who were buried or who died there make's me feel like crying )
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Post by xeoran on Aug 9, 2006 5:36:49 GMT -5
Yeah, been to Normandy, Ardennes, most of the concentration/work camps etc. Sad stuff. The worst though I find are the WW1 graves, just waves upon waves of crosses, ever seen the Menin gate? That is really sad.
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Post by malika on Aug 13, 2006 7:11:19 GMT -5
Hmm dont believe the Spanish over exaguration of temples and streets flooding with the blood of the unbelievers. Yes the Azteks were a very military and unfriendly culture, but do they need to be whiped out for it? Werent the Spanish any better, torturing and burning down everybody who they believed opposed them? Perceptions of good and evil should be looked at in a cultural relativistic view (to a certain degree of course), some aspects of our culture which are considered good might be seen as purely evil by other groups.
Talking about graves, Ive just returned from Marocco and well, when you're in Casablanca and you want to go to the beach you have to cross this giant cemetery, it just didnt look real, all the graves turned in the same direction, overgrown with plantlife and animals while kids in swimmingshorts and surfboards run through it all...sorry my little off topic moment here!
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