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Post by xeoran on Aug 14, 2006 11:07:43 GMT -5
Spanish over exaguration of temples and streets flooding with the blood of the unbelievers. Yes the Azteks were a very military and unfriendly culture, but do they need to be whiped out for it? Werent the Spanish any better, torturing and burning down everybody who they believed opposed them? Perceptions of good and evil should be looked at in a cultural relativistic view (to a certain degree of course), some aspects of our culture which are considered good might be seen as purely evil by other groups. I agree with you there. As they say- "two wrongs dont make a right" |
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Post by skorzeny on Aug 15, 2006 5:06:47 GMT -5
I'll quietly step aside since I don't want to start any kind of argument, but of every culture I've ever studied, the Aztecs are by far the most miserable excuse for human beings that have ever been spat into the world, with the sole possible exception being the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia. They were just a diseased and abominable people in every way shape and form, with nothing that I've ever encountered that betokens something even slightly redeeming about them. These weren't advanced people like the Toltecs or Olmecs or Maya, these were fanatical psychopaths who slaughtered millions to feed their blood-hungry gods in the most barbaric and hideous ways imaginable. They practiced ritual cannibalism, slavery on a scale of brutality that made even the Spanish seem amateur, and a religious/cultural intolerance that was at least on par if not worse than the Spanish. Everything that people seem to see of merit in the Aztec culture was stolen or at least derived from the genuinely advanced cultures that preceded them and which may in fact have been destroyed by these blood-hungry fanatics.
Other cultures, true, have practiced human sacrifice, and many of the Meso-American peoples did offer blood sacrifices to their gods. However, the Aztecs raised this to a height that goes beyond anything that a sane person can rationalize away - they made human sacrifice the centre of their entire social structure and employed it in what could only be termed 'industrial' level of implementation. To draw an obscene but sickeningly appropriate analogy from history, the Aztecs did with blood sacrifice what the Nazis did with anti-Semitism.
Okay, end of rant. Just had to get that off the old chest.
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Post by xeoran on Aug 16, 2006 4:00:46 GMT -5
No worries, the internet is the best place for opinion and debate.
I'd say though that the facty that the Aztecs kept good parts of other civilisations is slightly mitigating in itself. After all most cultures steal rampantly from each other anyway. The thing is though that while they may have been worse than others much of what they practiced is only what others have done but worse. Which isnt much of a defense but at least allows perspective.
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Post by skorzeny on Aug 16, 2006 7:25:00 GMT -5
Well, except that the Toltecs only used volunteer sacrifices (granted they made sure everybody was pretty keen to get sacrificed if they were called on to do it and you suffered social stigma like you wouldn't believe if you didn't let the priest 'feed' you to the gods) whereas the Aztecs used war prisoners and captives for the most part (volunteers were used for special rituals, kind of like a Christmas goose for Huitzilopotchli and the other maggots of the Aztec pantheon). Rather large difference there. The Toltecs needed at least the pretence that their victim was willing, the Aztecs didn't see any need to bother with such moral justification. The worst villains are those who don't even bother trying to make excuses.
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Post by malika on Aug 16, 2006 7:59:59 GMT -5
IIRC the Azteks had an excuse in the lines of that the Europeans killed their enemies during battle and that they (the Azteks) killed them after war by sacrificing. Another note is that the Spanish were great at over exagerating many rituals and customs to make their own ways look more "moral". Another note should be made that the local enemies of the Azteks also performed human sacrifice on their prisoners, the Toltecs were also known IIRC to sacrifice their Aztek prisoners... But all these things are relatively minor compared to the great geno-/ethnocide commited by the Europeans on their search for gold and other riches. The natives in North America live in concentration camps which are called "reservations" while in South America they have become a large underclass group which is nothing more than a shade of a former proud civilization which has been butchered and oppressed for 500 years. I wanted to mention the Carribeans also...but the natives there have all been massacred  While this does not excuse the Azteks it makes them (in my opinion) look less bad than the "civilized" who sought to enrich themselves and show these "savaged" how to be civilized... Hmm...we are entering a vague territory, but its interesting none the less  |
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Post by skorzeny on Aug 16, 2006 10:44:24 GMT -5
While there is a great deal to be said about the loathsome way in which Europeans treated American Indians, even at the worst, it doesn't compare to the absolute evil that was the Aztec mentality. The sheer scale of what those monsters did and how they did it is just beyond belief. You have to recall, these guys pretty much had human sacrifice working on an industrial scale, during several 'festivals' sacrifices went on 24/7. Then there is the way they conducted their sacrifices. They were designed to drag the uttmost terror and pain from the victims. The victims were marched up the sides of the pyramids (which is itself no easy task if you have every been to one, the steps are designed to force you to be off balance and the angle forces you to crouch), probably after already seeing untold numbers of predecessors despatched. The victim was thrown down onto a stone slab with priests holding his arms and legs. Then the high priest would carve out the victim's heart with a dull stone knife - that takes awhile and you can bet it isn't exactly painless. Then, once the flesh has been ripped open, the priest reaches in and tears out the still beating heart.
A blanket infested with small pox will kill you too, but I know which way I'd prefer to check out. With every other indigenous culture in North America, South and Central America (well, except the cannibalistic Carribe), I can really sympathize and feel that great injustice and atrocity was visited upon them. Hitler got the idea for concentration camps from Indian reservations, after all and in many ways thought he could get away with genocide because of this precedent (and that of the Turks against the Armenians). However, when it comes to the Aztecs, in this one instance I can't see anything but an abominable people finally having retribution visited upon them - they got exactly what they earned: destruction.
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Post by coolclaytony on Apr 7, 2011 20:32:16 GMT -5
well ignoring the political and moral aspects of said events, places like the death camps would just make an awesome setting for a senerio like this:
The Nazi Death Camp, (random german word here), has been under Allied survailece for several months due to reports of Occult enhancment being done on prisoners (not referring to any particular ethnical group) to be used as expendable yet powerful Abomination soldiers. When President McArthur learns that said experiments are taking place, he along with Winston Churchill launch a surprise attack on the death camp. Some of the prisioners, seeing the opportunity, make their brake for it.
Allied Misson: Liberate or destroy death camp. Killing prisoners is an option. Do not allow the Nazi's to send out their quota of deployed Abomination soldiers. Primary goal: Prevent further conversion of prisoners to abomination soldiers and destroy any that are found.
Nazi Mission: Destroy Allied invaders. Do not allow prisoners to escape. Killing prisoners is an option. Maintain Conversion Stations. Primary Goal: Have 10 trucks carrying 5 abomination soldiers each leave the map succesfully.
Prisoner Misson: Primary Goal: Exit map.
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fattdex
Lieutenant
Halt! Hammerzeit!
Posts: 464
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Post by fattdex on Apr 8, 2011 0:58:44 GMT -5
How about don't ignore the political and moral implications and Just Don't Go There.
Killing (not referring to any particular ethnic group that were rounded up and put in deathcamps)'s is not a good time.
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Post by TrueRonin on Apr 8, 2011 5:01:02 GMT -5
One thing that AE: WWII has going for it already is the powerful media blackouts written into the background. This is to me a good way of sidestepping the many political landmines of the era, and could eventually keep most atrocities entirely out of the story.
One thing I have learned as being from a neighbouring country to Germany is the strong political potato the iconography of the Nazi regime is. Any and all icons associated with Nazism is banned outright in Germany unless used for educational reasons, which to me seems overly weird. My experience tells me this will only alienate that very important part of their history and give it room to grow "secretly" feeding the poorer parts of the country who feel they have some justification or reason to hate foreigners, taking their jobs for example (especially eastern europeans and middle easterners). I've seen this personally some 15 years ago, and I imagine the problem has only gotten worse over time.
Darkson Designs should continue down the path they have set for the game, they are doing it right IMHO. Perhaps even expand on the media blackouts and make them more visible, like having US citizens question the San Francisco insident as being a hoax just to make people buy more warbonds or similar stories across the nations.
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Post by coolclaytony on Apr 8, 2011 6:07:41 GMT -5
How about don't ignore the political and moral implications and Just Don't Go There. Killing (not referring to any particular ethnic group that were rounded up and put in deathcamps)'s is not a good time. This idea is based on the mentalities of warfare at the time as well as both sides treatment of the issue. The genocide was the last concearn of the Allied Nations, this senerio reflects that because the Allied Forces are here to stop Nazi super soldier construction. Also Killing the innosant bystanders is an option because it offers a tactical choice for both sides to take (Plus you know McArthur would approve such unethical warefare tactics) also you are not REQUIRED to kill the prisoners on ethier side the only thing your required to do is meet your primary goal. The Nazi's have to convert and shipout abominations and the Allies have to stop them. This really shouldn't be a barrier. The Holocaust was somthing that exsisted durring WWII, it would be foolish in my mind to leave such a great plot device in the dark. |
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Post by evernevermore(john) on Apr 8, 2011 21:19:27 GMT -5
Killing (not referring to any particular ethnic group that were rounded up and put in deathcamps)'s is not a good time. Um - we are playing a game of killing little models... TrueRonin - if Germany is bad then virtually every story Ive ever encountered coming out of Japan is worse. No mention is made of incidents like the Rape of Nanking (part of the ongoing issues between China and Japan), the Baatan Death March and the almost routine violations of treatment of prisoners of war. Most of the war seems to be just glossed over historywise in the educational system. But I could be wrong |
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Post by Darkson on Apr 15, 2011 23:51:00 GMT -5
If you read through our books you will find very little mention of Nazi's. We did this as we did not feel that the name added anything to the fluff or feel of the game. The writers have danced a very fine line and have done a great job with the background without going over the edge. It has been even harder for them while going through the Pacific.
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